Last of the Time Lords

[jadesfire]

So.

Well then.

I was going to post something witty and lengthy about the episode, making comparisons, exploring themes, referencing films, books and plays and possibly ending in song.

Instead, I shall throw the floor open. I know lots of you have ranted in your journals already, but let's take this as calmly as we can. As usual, big areas for discussion are Performance, Production and Writing, and let's make sure we include implications for Torchwood. Assume that everyone's seen everything, so also ASSUME SPOILERS in the comments.

Feelings are running high, so let's try to keep it polite. Debating's fine; flaming's not. Keep it clean, folks.

Comments

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

Total disappointment after the long build up. Instead of jumping right where they left us last week (and oh, they could've given us so much action!) they spend another entire episode to introduce us to the (new) setting again, and then resolve the plot in under 5 minutes.

Then they throw in some cheesy dialogue, make an unnecessary pun regarding Jack and think it's the best thing they ever did. There's just nothing that saves this episode.

[aoife-8.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure how I feel. On balance, I think I feel...cheated. There was so much unrealised potential in this episode. Some of the characters were grossly underused (Lucy Saxon; Jack) and there were a fair number of plot holes...and I'm afraid I lost the ability to suspend my disbelief when the Doctor turned into Gollum. On the other hand, there were some cracking special effects, and some inspired performances from both Tennant and Simms. And I loved Martha's final goodbye scene with the Doctor. The final revelation about Jack? Had me speechless; but I don't like it and I don't buy it. SO I'm off to watch the episode a couple more times to see if this changes my mind.

[fairyd123.livejournal.com]

Well my utter loathing of the Jack revelation aside I did think it was a slightly disappointing episode. Too much Martha and new characters, far too little scenes with the Doctor, the Master and Jack. Tennant was completely ineffectual (well up to the wonderful moment when he cried with the dying Master in his arms which was wonderful) as he was stuck in old age makeup or as a CGI creation. I simply haven't warmed to Martha's family (and I can't help but wonder if this is one of the reasons why poor Freema is getting the boot because the production team realise that the actors who play her family simply aren't very engaging) and resented any screen time they got.

Simm was brilliant but didn't actually get as much screentime as he deserved and was defeated rather easily. Plus the Doctor's Tinkerbell style regeneration was just embarrasingly cheesy.

And there was just so little Jack - he may as well not have been in the episode.

Oh and did I mention how much I hated the reveal? Clumsily written with awkward exposition and just a really grotesque fate for Jack.

Disappointing - but I shall await the fic with interest!

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

It did contain a lot of recycled items (Captain Scarlet, Terminator, Star Wars, Tank Girl, Dracula. V for Vengeance and Peter Pan to name but a few), and while a game of spot the reference can sometimes be fun, this time it was just a distraction.

I liked the idea of Martha Jones walking across the world, saving it by telling it one thing, even if it does make her Sarah Connor. I'm less convinced by the V for Vengeance time critical outcome - would people be able to synchronise their actions in that way, and why (other than the interests of the plot) should it be just before the Master pushes the big red button.

The whole ending felt rushed and disappointing. Tinkerbelle The Doctor as a deus ex flying harness machina, restored to life by everyone saying they believed in him. Why? Why would this work? Why would he un-age 1000 years.

Jack Harkness destroying the paradox machine by emptying the magazine of a Heckler and Koch G-36 into it. Why? Why would this work? Why would it reset the whole of time and space rather than do something utterly unpredictable.

The restore point = just after the US president was killed. Why? Why would this work? The paradox machine must have been running since the first time a toclofane killed a human, since that was the point at which the paradox started. So the intrepid Daily Mirror reporter was the first point we saw in the paradox.

We could have done with less of the diversion on Cloudbase (I assume it was a diversion, not a genuine attempt) and more time for a proper ending.

I wasn't convinced at first by the Face of Boe. I thought it must involve some retrospective continuity, and I still think it does. A news report from The Long Game describes Boe as giving birth to the last of six baby boes, leading one to believe that he is *a* boe not *the* boe.

But now I think about it, I am reminded of Data's comments in the ep of Star Trek where they find his head. Data said he was glad, because it showed that one day he would die/cease to be - that he had an end. Because otherwise he might have to contemplate living forever, outliving everything else around him, including the universe.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Russell T Davies has been on the podcast to say he definitely means that 5 billion years into the future, Jack *is* the Face of Boe. I've posted more thoughts about that just below - I still think it involves a bit of RetCon.

[fairyd123.livejournal.com]

I should also point out that the reveal renders Torchwood the series completely irrelevant. If we ultimately know Jack's fate then we know that nothing he does in Torchwood will have any effect. And it means its difficult to care about Ianto, Gwen, Tosh and Owen if we know that ultimately they account for a very brief moment in Jack's very very long life. Very strange idea - I'm baffled as to why the Production team thought this was a great idea.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

I don't think Martha's getting the boot - Russell has said that she'll be back, and there's some speculation she'll also turn up in Torchwood (just think of the pace it could move at if she replaces either Gwen or Owen).

I think he wants to move away from the Doctor/Companion setup a bit. The companion always has to be "wide-eyed" and he can't do that with Martha (or Jack).

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

we know that nothing he does in Torchwood will have any effect

On what? On 21st century earth? On those around him? Those effects are still going to be real. He doesn't know he has the potential to be the longest lived being in the universe. You'll forget about it as soon as Torchwood starts up again - he's got 5 million years to transform into the Face of Boe.

[xwingace]

And actually my main hangup with the resolution of the plot (apart from the Pratchett steals) is that, while the previous episodes all provided some minor additions to the arc leading up to the final three, which was brilliant setup, the one thing they should really have been setting up is the Archangel Network, which was sort of dropped in at the last minute, and now has to carry the entire plot.

And they were doing so well.

XWA

[xwingace]

Funny, I also heard him saying it's just a theory. He then gets shouted down by Collinson and Gardner, but he does say it...

XWA

[xwingace]

200.000 years, actually. FoB is mentioned in The Long Game and Bad Wolf

XWA

[aoife-8.livejournal.com]

Oh bugger, it's really canon, then? I think I'm the one in need of RetCon ;)

[pinkamethyst.livejournal.com]

and possibly ending in song.
Oh, please do! I'm sure you could knock up a quick song, Mitch Benn stylee, about Doctor Who.

Anyways. Let's be serious. *roll eyes* I can't even explain why I didn't like this episode. In fact, I don't even think that I didn't like this episode. I just felt that it lost the magic, somehow. I've got so used to watching Doctor Who and feeling swept away by it, longing for it to be next Saturday already. Without meaning to sound too weird, I do think that there is something very magical about Doctor Who and I just didn't get that from yesterday's episode. *shrugs* But I'm willing to admit that this may be because I watched it at some ridiculous hour of the morning and maybe I will like it more when I watch for the second time.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Gah! Man always does have to have a getout. I only heard a clip....

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

You're right. He/she/it is having a little boe in Long Game. Although that would rather suggest he/she/it is *a* boe, rather than *the* boe, but there you go.

I think I've become resigned to the idea.

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

I loved the "One Year Later" thing - the opportunity that gives us for fic is excellent. There's lots of fic fodder in the episode, period, and that makes me happy.

There's a lot that just doesn't make sense to me. It felt like the timing at the end was too much, with too much going on and being revealed too fast with too much exposition rather than showing. The scale was too big to be interesting or to invest in, especially with the speed that it all happened.

All that said: Good info for us, good fodder for fic, and interesting things to play with in fanon - and since that's most of what I'm after, I'm good.

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

I think they thought it was a great idea, because it's the only possible way we can see what ultimately happens to Jack - and that Jack's still around and connected to the Doctor in the distant future.

I don't really love the idea on some levels, but I'll own straight up that reason is just that the Face of Boe's kind of icky looking and Barrowman's hot. That I know the end of his story? Has actually invested me in him MORE.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Another thought on the "say my name" (very Kemitic:) ending, arising from a discussion over at fandom_me's.

It would only have taken a little more time on the script to have come up with an explanation for the ending that didn't sound completely Peter Pan. I was reminded of Logopolis, an adventure that dealt entirely in the power of sound, and also involved the Master. It should have been building up to that - Shakespeare's words were powerful, powerful words featured several times. It would only have taken a little effort to make it the power of the word, and not sound like "do you believe in fairies"

[xwingace]

FoB is referred to as the 'last of his kind' in New Earth, which is in the year five billion and something. Plenty of time for the Boe race to die out in the meantime. Although even then (well, in Bad Wolf, but what's a century on this timescale?) it's inferred that he's unnaturally old for his species.

I'm getting a bit resigned, because I do like some implications of the idea (it's that good old time loop paradox coming up again; always my favourite kind of time travel mindbender plot), but it still doesn't feel really possible or logical to me.

XWA

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Yes he is, the last of his kind. But if he once was Jack, he's the only one of his kind (whether as a human or a boe). Doesn't it say that Boe had six children, but they only lived about 50 years.

I still think it needs a bit of RetCon to get it to work. It's a bit clunky.

[miss-zedem.livejournal.com]

A lot of things trouble me about the episode, but I keep coming back to the Jack as Face of Boe thing. I've been musing over precisely what it is that bothers me, and I think I've worked it out.

The thing I always liked about the character Captain Jack was that he was an enigma. We never knew if what he was telling us was the truth; our first introduction to his is as a conman, and it's clear the Doctor doesn't trust him, so we don't either.

But he's charming, he's intriguing, so gradually we get drawn in, along with the Doctor. And the fact we don't know much about him becomes a good thing rather than a bad. We forget about being suspicious, and start looking for clues to piece the puzzle together just so we can understand him more.

During series 1 DW, and series 1 TW, we gradually learn bits and pieces about the character's past - he's been a torturer at some point, he's served in the air force but also the army, he's been on Earth for a long time, etc. Series 3 DW gives us even more - we now know how he got back to Earth, we know when he arrived, we know about a few of his deaths. So far so interesting - our enigma is starting to become less so, and is becoming all the more appealing.

Then we find out he will become the Face of Boe, and suddenly all intrigue is gone. We know how long he'll live for, we know how, where, and when he'll die. We know he'll meet the Doctor again, and we know he'll have children - so much for never doing that again. Mystery? Gone.

The fact that it completely goes against canon, the fact that it makes no sense at all, and the fact that it's possibly the crummiest, worst written, and most contrived revelation I've ever heard are all completely beside the point. For me, the core of what makes Jack Jack has been wiped away, and with it my interest in the character.

[beccaelizabeth]

The paradox was that they were *wiping out* humans, leaving no one to become them. If a time traveller killing someone automatically makes a paradox then there's a lot of paradox lying around from assorted individuals.

It's a grandfather paradox on a massive scale that the paradox machine was blocking out. Unless the reporter or the president were yet to become the ancestors of that specific future, no grandfather paradox.

[xwingace]

Hell yeah, it's a retcon, and clunky. Wasn't arguing otherwise, really.

XWA

[beccaelizabeth]

I'm puzzled as to how you can say the mystery is gone when we know approximately five minutes in his next five billion years. The gravestone is not the novel, knowing when he ends doesn't mean we know how he lived.

Plus the entire episode dealt with things being true that couldn't both be true at once, so it's not like knowing a thing will happen in this 'verse means it actually does.

[beccaelizabeth]

We never knew if what he was telling us was the truth

... including this?
I think he's kidding.