Aced the written, flunked the oral.

[jadesfire]

I have a list of 27 "five things" suggestions from yesterdaym spanning 7 or 8 fandoms (depending on whether Jack counts as his own fandom or not - he does in my world :)). That's 135 things.

O.O

Y'all know I only have one brain, right? Anyway, I'm getting right on them, and should have a batch ready by the end of the day.

But there's something rather more random that's come to my attention over the last few months, and I get the feeling I'm not the only one.

One of my responsibilities from time to time is to open the safe and retrieve money for various nefarious purposes banking or counting. I have been told the safe combination at least eight times by three different people. I cannot remember it. At all. It's a date that has significance for people who've been here longer, but it doesn't mean anything to me, and I just cannot remember it, along with the necessary turns and twizzles that will actually open the safe door. What I need is for someone to write it down for me. I'm fairly sure that if I see the numbers written down, I'll find a way to remember them.

Considering I'm addicted to the radio (Radio 4 especially, whose tagline is 'intelligent speech'), it never ceases to amaze me how visually oriented I am. If I'm trying to learn something, I have to write it down. If I want to remember something, I have to write it down. The telephone is hard for me, not only because of the way my foot loves to live in my mouth, but because I can't see the other person. I can't judge their reactions and I find it hard to really hear them and listen properly unless I can see them. Podfic is one of my favourite things in the world, but I have to make a conscious effort to listen to it if I'm doing something else at the same time, even something as mindless as just walking home. Because my brain is too easily distracted by what I'm seeing and wanders off in that direction, and I end up having to rewind big chunks of it. If I'm doing something even more mindless while I'm listening (travelling by plane or bus, say), then I close my eyes and watch the pictures in my head. It's never just about the words - the words make a picture, and that's what I follow along with.

Anyone who's read my fic knows that my main focus is always the visual. My betas force me to put in the messy internal stuff, because otherwise they can't see what I can. They can't see the expressions on the characters' faces through the scene, and I'm constantly trying to catch that, to put into words what each look means. It often doesn't occur to me that other people can't see it, although I'm getting better at putting it in there on the first draft.

The visual-dependency has unexpected consequences. Another part of my job is to hand books out from a closed collection, which people normally request by saying the name of the book and author. Oh good grief, that part is hard for me. Really, really hard. If they show me their reading list, I can get it first time. If they just say it, I normally make them repeat it, then spell it for me. It doesn't help that I've got badly blocked ears at the moment, but even when I don't, my oral comprehension is terrible. I'm sure one girl this morning thought I was rudely correcting her punctuation, which I really wasn't, I was just trying to make sure I could remember it.

I'm not going anywhere with this, except to say that if you have a visually oriented person in your life/family/class, please bear in mind that they were genuinely listening when you told them to do that thing, but that they didn't remember because they didn't write it down. Ditto visual people - I sometimes forget to say things, because I've written them. One of my biggest bugbears as a student was lecturers who didn't hand out notes at the beginning of class, and I love it now when presenters give me their powerpoint outline. I know some people don't like to do it, on the basis that they want the audience to listen, not just read along or switch off, but when you have trouble remembering things when they're just said, it can make the class a nightmare.

I can learn things orally, but usually only if they're set to music. Even now, I remember the present tense of Ancient Greek verbs, because you can sing them to the tune of the Mexican Hat Song. But you know what? When I recite them, I get the mental image of a big old Sombrero lying in the sun. And the pictures are definitely better on the radio.

ETA: Having done some digging, visual learners are actually *more* of the population than aural learners (anywhere from 1/3-3/4 depending on which survey you believe) although those of us who are pretty much exclusively visual are more unusual. It's therefore even weirder that we expect people to remember things we just *tell* them to do.

Out of interest, people who know your learning styles, do you know your personality type too? I make no secret of my interest in the subject (this is me) and am kind of intrigued to see if there's any kind of correlation. (decent test here if you want one)

Comments

[white_hart]

I'm the same. I can remember things I've read word-for-word; I can describe things I've seen in almost photographic detail. But it's a real struggle to listen in meetings, and Radio 4 is mostly just intelligent background noise. What's particularly bad is that I often completely miss Tim saying something to me because I'm distracted by what's on my computer screen.

What works for me is doing something with my hands at the same time. In work meetings I take notes, or fiddle with my pen at least. In non-work meetings or listening to the radio I knit. It's still not perfect, but it does help!

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*nods* I think visually oriented people are probably the majority, we just don't really think about it and expect people to learn by listening. Which doesn't work for us at all!

I find taking notes essential for remembering what happened, otherwise I end up with a sort of hand-wavey "we talked" kind of report!

[miss-zedem.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how my brain works - or even if it does ;) I know I learn best by being able to break things down and see how they work. I could never wrap my head around verb endings at school because no-one ever explained to me why certain verbs followed certain patterns. Now that I know, I have no trouble with them at all. I think that's why I did badly at school in science - so much of what they wanted us to learn wasn't explained because they thought it would make it too difficult for us, so instead they just told us to learn the formulae etc, which I couldn't do.

Having said which, I can learn a piece of music by ear, although only if I'm paying attention. There are songs I've heard hundreds of times that I still don't know the lyrics to because I've never tried to learn them. A number like a door-entry code I have to visualise the pattern, but it's the pattern of the numbers not the pattern of the keys. Telephone numbers are the same - if I can find a pattern I'll remember it, if not then I will be referring to my mobile/address book for the rest of time.

Um, that was a really long and rambling way of saying I know what you mean, and I think I might have a mostly visual brain as well... ;)

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*g* I think what you're talking about is what Myers-Briggs folk call the 'N' or 'iNtuiting' preference ('I' already stood for 'Introvert ;)) - you have to see the big picture, the story behind the facts in order to grasp the facts themselves. I'm just the same, although I don't think I have as strong a preference as you, by the sounds of it :)

Thinking about the world in general, I think us visually oriented folk might be in the majority (unlike Ns who are a definite minority), it's just that we try to do so much by talking. There's something not quite right there...

[rustydog.livejournal.com]

I am much more visually oriented than aural, too, and I've wondered the same thing about how much I like the radio. I do understand what I hear on the radio, though it may be through sheer practice, since it's been my main form of media for so many years. What I've realized recently is that, at least with news and information, a lot of times radio is better for me because it's less distracting (there's *so* much visual information on a TV newscast, some of it not very relevant, that I'm overwhelmed) - and when I'm listening to the radio, I can imagine the visuals, and I can be doing something with my hands. That's another key for me, I think - kinesthetic involvement. After I listen to something on the radio, I often type out a response. I couldn't learn things well in school unless I physically re-copied my notes or typed them up. And making pictures and diagrams really helps. Could you draw the lock combination in some representative way that would have more meaning for your memory?

And the pictures are definitely better on the radio.

Exactly!

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

I really hope I can find a way to memorise the combination - if I can get it written down for me then *do* it a couple of times, I'll be able to remember it by replaying the video in my head. Otherwise, I don't stand a chance!

I hadn't thought about that for the television. For me, it's that I get distracted by the pictures on the TV and don't listen to what's being said, so I miss whatever it was I tuned in to hear about *facepalm* I'd rather get my pictures from newspapers online than watch it on TV.

[greyias.livejournal.com]

You mean it's not just me then? At work, I have to write down everything, otherwise I am sure to forget it. To the point to where I'm sure my boss thinks I have Alzheimer's, because I ask to have everything written down, e-mail, etc. And since we've gotten our third team member, I'll find myself drawing random nonsense on sticky notes as I try to explain something to her.

And working with audio, which I have to do a lot, is particularly difficult and frustrating for me, because I can hear that something is off, but unless I'm looking at a visual representation of a waveform, I probably can't say exactly what the difference between two noises is. But oh, oh I can see it.

I find that with podfics or audio dramas, I really have to be doing something else, something rather mindless. Like driving the car, playing FreeCell, or video-safe checking PowerPoints.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

[I'm going to copy this comment as an ETA, btw, since I probably should have looked at this before I wrote the post ;)]

Having done some digging, visual learners are actually *more* of the population than aural learners (anywhere from 1/3-3/4 depending on which survey you believe) although those of us who are pretty much exclusively visual are more unusual. It's therefore even weirder that we expect people to remember things we just *tell* them to do.

Like you, I really can't just *sit* and listen to something. I find it best when I'm walking or cooking, or if I'm sitting, I'll cross-stitch or something like that. Just listening...doesn't work in my brain, somehow.

EVERYTHING has to be written down for me. Preferably multiple times and in many different colours.

...out of interest, have you ever done a personality-type test? (there's a good one here (http://www.mypersonality.info/) if you want to) I'm an ENTP (http://www.mypersonality.info/personality-types/entp/) (seriously, I could just replace my profile with this webpage (http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=inventor) and it'd be me) and always intrigued to see if the things I have in common with people are anything to do with that...

[azure-chaos.livejournal.com]

for your book problem i suggest request slips :) this does away with all those pesky pronunciation/hearing/forgetfulness problems :) it should increase efficiency and speed for you. (not sure if it's been suggested before)

nate

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Ah, that's a nice idea, thanks, but it's part of a system I'm afraid - with the volume of people we have requesting (sometimes queuing 10 deep) we just couldn't do that. And it only seems to be me who has a problem! It's one of those things I'm stuck with, sadly, and just have to manage as best I can :S

I like the students who bring their reading lists to the request desk :D

[hllangel]

I definitely am more of a visual learner, and I have to write something down or see it written down for anything to stick. If not, I have to pay really close attention to anything else for it to make sense.

At the same time, I can remember things visually as well. One strange party trick is recognizing TV sets that have been used in different shows. I know instantly what it is and where I've seen it before. Actors, too, to some extent. But the flip side is that if I hear something, I'm unlikely to have a clear idea of it in my head. I'll recognize songs that I've heard before, but when people ask me if I know "such and such" song by "that" artist, I'm mostly totally blank.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*grin* That's definitely a neat trick! I'm good at actors and faces in general, but not so much locations. The audio thing is much, much harder, definitely.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one :) So much of what we do seems to be centred on talking, which is good, as long as I can have notes afterwards!

[phoenix64.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. I find I can write things down and have an easier time remembering them even if I never look at what I wrote down again. I know I also have a little kinetic/tactile to my learning style. This is most relevant for me at work when I'm trying to help or explain to someone something on the computer. 99% of the time it's easiest if I can just sit at the computer myself and just show them. I can verbalize what I'm doing while I'm doing it (to an extent), but just standing to the side I'm useless.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I like being taught by people like you! I get really wound up when someone puts me in front of a computer and says "let me talk you through this" - they don't seem to realise that I'll learn faster if I can watch them do it then mimic it!

Considering people are *so* visually oriented in general, it's starting to make me wonder about how we do things - why do we just have meetings where we just *talk*? I want notes and slides and pictures to explain it to me. I'm never going to complain about minutes again...

[jade-starlight.livejournal.com]

I'm like that. Often, I can even remember if a quote I'm looking for in a book is on the right or left page, and about how far down it was.

But remembering things people say? Unless there's something pretty memorable about it, like the way they said it, it's a lot harder. Sometimes I can't even remember what I said, or who I said it to.

But anything set to music, I'm golden. *g*

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

That's a neat trick! I can normally remember context, but that's about it.

Hee! I love it when people do the "have you heard..." thing and tell you what you told them in the first place. Everyone does it, and we just don't realise it!

Music is definitely good for people who struggle in other ways. Much more memorable :)

[travels-in-time.livejournal.com]

EVERYTHING YOU SAID HERE. *nods furiously* Except the ancient Greek stuff, which I never studied, but I can sing you all the linking verbs to the tune of "Jingle Bells".

This is what makes online Bible studies an excellent thing, but actually going to church a terrible waste of time (at least in terms of learning anything).

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Linking verbs? *puts on sombrero*

Hee, yeah, I know what you mean. I started taking sermon notes in the Ancient Alphabet from SGA, because it gave me something that was visually interesting as well as conveying the content. Just being talked at doesn't seem to work so well - even if I love it at the time, I just can't remember it later :S

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

I'm good with numbers... but crap with names and faces... i.e. some lj friends gave me their RL names - I've now started a list as I'm so forgetful (friended one on facebook but cannot remember her lj name) still no idea how to resolve that one

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I'm very good at faces, less so with names, but pretty good with anything written down.

I don't think there's any cure except what you're doing! Accept you're bad at it and find strategies to cope. I still can't remember names most of the time, but at least I'm trying :D

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

Been asleep, woken up, going to bed I am OMG ISTJ/ISFJ no surprises there then.... and er

(http://madjaks.mypersonality.info)

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*grin* This is me:

(http://jades.mypersonality.info)

Which I think makes me a noisy, know-it-all, klutz.

Oddly, I can live with that :D

[in-the-bottle.livejournal.com]

I don't think you can get more introverted than me...

(http://inthebottle.mypersonality.info)

[crystalshard.livejournal.com]

I seem to be able to do both types, but I will admit that I learn better if I can see; even better if I can do. And music keys my memory, too. I remember songs far better than speeches.

BTW, remember when I was an INTJ? Just redid the test, keeping in mind what I'm like when I'm around people, and bam! ENFP, that's me. A very good description here. (http://typelogic.com/enfp.html) It sounds much more like the real me.

(http://lydiabell.mypersonality.info)

[white_hart]

I'm the same. I can remember things I've read word-for-word; I can describe things I've seen in almost photographic detail. But it's a real struggle to listen in meetings, and Radio 4 is mostly just intelligent background noise. What's particularly bad is that I often completely miss Tim saying something to me because I'm distracted by what's on my computer screen.

What works for me is doing something with my hands at the same time. In work meetings I take notes, or fiddle with my pen at least. In non-work meetings or listening to the radio I knit. It's still not perfect, but it does help!

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*nods* I think visually oriented people are probably the majority, we just don't really think about it and expect people to learn by listening. Which doesn't work for us at all!

I find taking notes essential for remembering what happened, otherwise I end up with a sort of hand-wavey "we talked" kind of report!

[miss-zedem.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how my brain works - or even if it does ;) I know I learn best by being able to break things down and see how they work. I could never wrap my head around verb endings at school because no-one ever explained to me why certain verbs followed certain patterns. Now that I know, I have no trouble with them at all. I think that's why I did badly at school in science - so much of what they wanted us to learn wasn't explained because they thought it would make it too difficult for us, so instead they just told us to learn the formulae etc, which I couldn't do.

Having said which, I can learn a piece of music by ear, although only if I'm paying attention. There are songs I've heard hundreds of times that I still don't know the lyrics to because I've never tried to learn them. A number like a door-entry code I have to visualise the pattern, but it's the pattern of the numbers not the pattern of the keys. Telephone numbers are the same - if I can find a pattern I'll remember it, if not then I will be referring to my mobile/address book for the rest of time.

Um, that was a really long and rambling way of saying I know what you mean, and I think I might have a mostly visual brain as well... ;)

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*g* I think what you're talking about is what Myers-Briggs folk call the 'N' or 'iNtuiting' preference ('I' already stood for 'Introvert ;)) - you have to see the big picture, the story behind the facts in order to grasp the facts themselves. I'm just the same, although I don't think I have as strong a preference as you, by the sounds of it :)

Thinking about the world in general, I think us visually oriented folk might be in the majority (unlike Ns who are a definite minority), it's just that we try to do so much by talking. There's something not quite right there...

[rustydog.livejournal.com]

I am much more visually oriented than aural, too, and I've wondered the same thing about how much I like the radio. I do understand what I hear on the radio, though it may be through sheer practice, since it's been my main form of media for so many years. What I've realized recently is that, at least with news and information, a lot of times radio is better for me because it's less distracting (there's *so* much visual information on a TV newscast, some of it not very relevant, that I'm overwhelmed) - and when I'm listening to the radio, I can imagine the visuals, and I can be doing something with my hands. That's another key for me, I think - kinesthetic involvement. After I listen to something on the radio, I often type out a response. I couldn't learn things well in school unless I physically re-copied my notes or typed them up. And making pictures and diagrams really helps. Could you draw the lock combination in some representative way that would have more meaning for your memory?

And the pictures are definitely better on the radio.

Exactly!

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

I really hope I can find a way to memorise the combination - if I can get it written down for me then *do* it a couple of times, I'll be able to remember it by replaying the video in my head. Otherwise, I don't stand a chance!

I hadn't thought about that for the television. For me, it's that I get distracted by the pictures on the TV and don't listen to what's being said, so I miss whatever it was I tuned in to hear about *facepalm* I'd rather get my pictures from newspapers online than watch it on TV.

[greyias.livejournal.com]

You mean it's not just me then? At work, I have to write down everything, otherwise I am sure to forget it. To the point to where I'm sure my boss thinks I have Alzheimer's, because I ask to have everything written down, e-mail, etc. And since we've gotten our third team member, I'll find myself drawing random nonsense on sticky notes as I try to explain something to her.

And working with audio, which I have to do a lot, is particularly difficult and frustrating for me, because I can hear that something is off, but unless I'm looking at a visual representation of a waveform, I probably can't say exactly what the difference between two noises is. But oh, oh I can see it.

I find that with podfics or audio dramas, I really have to be doing something else, something rather mindless. Like driving the car, playing FreeCell, or video-safe checking PowerPoints.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

[I'm going to copy this comment as an ETA, btw, since I probably should have looked at this before I wrote the post ;)]

Having done some digging, visual learners are actually *more* of the population than aural learners (anywhere from 1/3-3/4 depending on which survey you believe) although those of us who are pretty much exclusively visual are more unusual. It's therefore even weirder that we expect people to remember things we just *tell* them to do.

Like you, I really can't just *sit* and listen to something. I find it best when I'm walking or cooking, or if I'm sitting, I'll cross-stitch or something like that. Just listening...doesn't work in my brain, somehow.

EVERYTHING has to be written down for me. Preferably multiple times and in many different colours.

...out of interest, have you ever done a personality-type test? (there's a good one here (http://www.mypersonality.info/) if you want to) I'm an ENTP (http://www.mypersonality.info/personality-types/entp/) (seriously, I could just replace my profile with this webpage (http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=inventor) and it'd be me) and always intrigued to see if the things I have in common with people are anything to do with that...

[azure-chaos.livejournal.com]

for your book problem i suggest request slips :) this does away with all those pesky pronunciation/hearing/forgetfulness problems :) it should increase efficiency and speed for you. (not sure if it's been suggested before)

nate

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Ah, that's a nice idea, thanks, but it's part of a system I'm afraid - with the volume of people we have requesting (sometimes queuing 10 deep) we just couldn't do that. And it only seems to be me who has a problem! It's one of those things I'm stuck with, sadly, and just have to manage as best I can :S

I like the students who bring their reading lists to the request desk :D

[hllangel]

I definitely am more of a visual learner, and I have to write something down or see it written down for anything to stick. If not, I have to pay really close attention to anything else for it to make sense.

At the same time, I can remember things visually as well. One strange party trick is recognizing TV sets that have been used in different shows. I know instantly what it is and where I've seen it before. Actors, too, to some extent. But the flip side is that if I hear something, I'm unlikely to have a clear idea of it in my head. I'll recognize songs that I've heard before, but when people ask me if I know "such and such" song by "that" artist, I'm mostly totally blank.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*grin* That's definitely a neat trick! I'm good at actors and faces in general, but not so much locations. The audio thing is much, much harder, definitely.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one :) So much of what we do seems to be centred on talking, which is good, as long as I can have notes afterwards!

[phoenix64.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. I find I can write things down and have an easier time remembering them even if I never look at what I wrote down again. I know I also have a little kinetic/tactile to my learning style. This is most relevant for me at work when I'm trying to help or explain to someone something on the computer. 99% of the time it's easiest if I can just sit at the computer myself and just show them. I can verbalize what I'm doing while I'm doing it (to an extent), but just standing to the side I'm useless.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I like being taught by people like you! I get really wound up when someone puts me in front of a computer and says "let me talk you through this" - they don't seem to realise that I'll learn faster if I can watch them do it then mimic it!

Considering people are *so* visually oriented in general, it's starting to make me wonder about how we do things - why do we just have meetings where we just *talk*? I want notes and slides and pictures to explain it to me. I'm never going to complain about minutes again...

[jade-starlight.livejournal.com]

I'm like that. Often, I can even remember if a quote I'm looking for in a book is on the right or left page, and about how far down it was.

But remembering things people say? Unless there's something pretty memorable about it, like the way they said it, it's a lot harder. Sometimes I can't even remember what I said, or who I said it to.

But anything set to music, I'm golden. *g*

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

That's a neat trick! I can normally remember context, but that's about it.

Hee! I love it when people do the "have you heard..." thing and tell you what you told them in the first place. Everyone does it, and we just don't realise it!

Music is definitely good for people who struggle in other ways. Much more memorable :)

[travels-in-time.livejournal.com]

EVERYTHING YOU SAID HERE. *nods furiously* Except the ancient Greek stuff, which I never studied, but I can sing you all the linking verbs to the tune of "Jingle Bells".

This is what makes online Bible studies an excellent thing, but actually going to church a terrible waste of time (at least in terms of learning anything).

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Linking verbs? *puts on sombrero*

Hee, yeah, I know what you mean. I started taking sermon notes in the Ancient Alphabet from SGA, because it gave me something that was visually interesting as well as conveying the content. Just being talked at doesn't seem to work so well - even if I love it at the time, I just can't remember it later :S

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

I'm good with numbers... but crap with names and faces... i.e. some lj friends gave me their RL names - I've now started a list as I'm so forgetful (friended one on facebook but cannot remember her lj name) still no idea how to resolve that one

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I'm very good at faces, less so with names, but pretty good with anything written down.

I don't think there's any cure except what you're doing! Accept you're bad at it and find strategies to cope. I still can't remember names most of the time, but at least I'm trying :D

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

Been asleep, woken up, going to bed I am OMG ISTJ/ISFJ no surprises there then.... and er

(http://madjaks.mypersonality.info)

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

*grin* This is me:

(http://jades.mypersonality.info)

Which I think makes me a noisy, know-it-all, klutz.

Oddly, I can live with that :D

[in-the-bottle.livejournal.com]

I don't think you can get more introverted than me...

(http://inthebottle.mypersonality.info)