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I want to be able to read fic without crying
I may well regret making this private rant public, but I've tidied up the typing (although at least one typo will remain, I guarantee it), but it's this or cataloguing. Plus ranting is good for the spleen. Or something.
This isn't very me. Or, at least, it's the me I don't usually let out in public. But the volume of fic is going up, and I've just started reading seriously again. And I'm already getting cross.
I'm adding a caveat or disclaimer or explanation or 'Jades is a chicken, albeit an angry one' (*squawk*) to this, just to say that this is not aimed at any particular author(s). Much of the below works in the right context, but context is everything. Cliches in the hands of good writers can be remarkable and unique. But too often, something gets written in a good story, someone else picks it up, then someone else does and, well. I don't mind when things start to snowball. Avalanches are more of a problem.
None of these things are enough to make me stop reading a story, but they do make me wish that people would use the shows as their sources, rather than what other people have written. I should also add that I'm sure at least one, maybe two or (probably) all of these have come up in my own writing. I promise to cringe when I find them again.
I've used SGA and Torchwood for most of my examples, since that's most of what I'm reading right now, but I'm sure people can add to the list from other fandoms…
#1. Please, if you are writing about a TV show, watch said TV show. Please form your descriptions of the characters from what you see on the shiny screen in front of you, not from what you've read in several dozen fanfics. Current pet peeves are:
Torchwood: Thin Ianto. *squints* Not so much. I mean, he's not going to break any scales, but he's not that little either. His shoulders are pretty broad, and, alright, under the suit it's kind of hard to tell more than that, but he's kind of...man shaped. I'll grant you that it's possible that he has a "swimmer's build" (which I take to mean broad shouldered and slim waisted) but he's not thin.
SGA: Sheppard's face moves. Seriously. It moves lots and lots and lots. Try this picspam if you don't believe me. Yes, he can do impassive, but he doesn't do it most of the time. His eyebrows have almost as much life in them as his hair.
Torchwood: Ianto's height. More or less the same as Jack's.
SGA [shamelessly gakked from![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nightdog_barks]: Rodney's creamy skin. Say what? Pale, possibly. Creamy? Seriously? Maybe he has secret longings to be Cleopatra and bathes in milk as well, although how he ships it in is anyone's guess… (okay, I'm going to stop there because I feel crack!fic coming and need to lie down until it goes away)
Torchwood: Jack's broad shoulders. Now, I'm not one to criticise appreciation of JB's appearance. Not at all. But this goes hand in hand (so to speak) with stick-thin Ianto. The two of them are pretty well matched, but Jack wears a big coat and boots, which makes him look bigger. And yes, the coat's distracting, but still…
Also, when was the last time you noticed, really noticed the colour of someone's eyes? I don't have any problem with this in the right context, but in general, you have to be looking pretty closely. In the House fandom, there's good excuses for mentioning eye colour, given how often the directors highlight it, but most of the time in most fandoms, give your characters a good excuse for noticing the colour. Make something of it. Don't just throw it in because everyone else does.
#2. Once you have watched the characters, please try listening to them. Dialect, use of language, even choice of words all tell you something about the characters. This is helpful when you come to write them.
Torchwood: Jack has an American accent, but we know he's not American. Gwen and Ianto have Welsh accents, Tosh has pretty much an RP accent, while Owen has a London accent. Most of the time, there's not need to indicate this in the text, since we know what they sound like. The dialect might be different, but you don't need to drop 'h's or 't's off everything. Now and again to give flavour, perhaps, but please be careful. We need to be able to read it as well.
I should probably add that my first ever fandom was Gambit (oh, and the rest of the X-men as well), so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to reading accents that are written so strongly they become unintelligible. Torchwood's not that bad, but I do get frustrated with constant mention of Ianto's 'beautiful Welsh vowels'. One reference, people. One! We already know he's Welsh. Please find something else to say about his voice.
Out of interest, SGA people, how do you feel about seeing 'ZPM' written as 'ZedPM' for Rodney? I read the right one automatically for the person speaking, but there's a case for writing it out. I just know that it makes me blink, which can interrupt the flow.
#3. In and out of characterness is a trickier one, but I generally think that if you can back it up from canon, you're fine. I might disagree with you, but that's okay, as long as you're doing it from a sensible starting place.
Please stop making Jack and Ianto cry. Yes, I know we've seen them both crying in extreme situations, but for goodness sake stop it! Speaking as someone who has been known to burst into tears during adverts (and no, not just for the horror that is the Cilip Bang ad), even I don't cry as much as these two seem to in fic. If you're going to make them cry, give them a good reason.
People are really, really rubbish at talking about what they're feeling. Unless they've had really good therapy, but even then, if they're talking to someone who hasn't, they're going to mess it up. There's going to be lots of pauses, lots of significant looks and - if they're genuinely trying to talk about their feelings - lots of hand waving and 'you know?' If both the characters are men, this is probably going to be doubled.
If one of these men is John Sheppard, who looks like he's going to have a panic attack when someone hugs him, triple the number you first thought of. And add a couple of thousand. If one of these men is Ianto Jones, he's going to make sarcastic comments and look awkward. If one of them is Rodney McKay, he's going to keep talking until you shut him up out of pity. If one of them is Jack Harkness, you're going to think he's given you an answer until you walk away and realise he hasn't, not really. If one of these men is Gregory House…actually, even I can't imagine that one, so I'll stop there.
#4. Epithets. The OED defines this as: "An adjective indicating some quality or attribute which the speaker or writer regards as characteristic of the person or thing described." I vividly remember reading the novelisation of 'The Empire Strikes Back' at the age of thirteen, and wanting to throw it across the room because they kept describing Luke as 'the young commander'. Every. Other. Sentence. So this is a long standing personal gripe more than anything else, but hey, my journal, my rant.
Now, I know this is a personal dislike, and that it doesn't bother others so much, but please think when you're using epithets. Who's the point of view character? How are they going to think about the person they're talking to/watching? Are the Torchwood team really going to think of Jack as 'the Captain'? Does Sheppard think of Rodney as 'the astrophysicist'? Would Wilson think of House as 'the diagnostician'? (that one baffles me, I have to say…)
I'm aware that this is the one that people are going to disagree on, and I want to emphasise that in the right context, they work fine. But too often they're used because the writer thinks they need to introduce variety for the sake of variety. Descriptions like 'the other man' (and the phrase 'he said', while we're on this subject) don't really get 'read' by readers. They're registered as denoting the non-POV character (or speech) and kind of skipped over. Again, they can get awkward, but choice of words matters and is worth thinking about.
Actually, maybe that's what I'm trying to say: writers, please engage your brain before you open a Word document. Everyone will thank you in the long run.
This isn't very me. Or, at least, it's the me I don't usually let out in public. But the volume of fic is going up, and I've just started reading seriously again. And I'm already getting cross.
I'm adding a caveat or disclaimer or explanation or 'Jades is a chicken, albeit an angry one' (*squawk*) to this, just to say that this is not aimed at any particular author(s). Much of the below works in the right context, but context is everything. Cliches in the hands of good writers can be remarkable and unique. But too often, something gets written in a good story, someone else picks it up, then someone else does and, well. I don't mind when things start to snowball. Avalanches are more of a problem.
None of these things are enough to make me stop reading a story, but they do make me wish that people would use the shows as their sources, rather than what other people have written. I should also add that I'm sure at least one, maybe two or (probably) all of these have come up in my own writing. I promise to cringe when I find them again.
I've used SGA and Torchwood for most of my examples, since that's most of what I'm reading right now, but I'm sure people can add to the list from other fandoms…
#1. Please, if you are writing about a TV show, watch said TV show. Please form your descriptions of the characters from what you see on the shiny screen in front of you, not from what you've read in several dozen fanfics. Current pet peeves are:
Torchwood: Thin Ianto. *squints* Not so much. I mean, he's not going to break any scales, but he's not that little either. His shoulders are pretty broad, and, alright, under the suit it's kind of hard to tell more than that, but he's kind of...man shaped. I'll grant you that it's possible that he has a "swimmer's build" (which I take to mean broad shouldered and slim waisted) but he's not thin.
SGA: Sheppard's face moves. Seriously. It moves lots and lots and lots. Try this picspam if you don't believe me. Yes, he can do impassive, but he doesn't do it most of the time. His eyebrows have almost as much life in them as his hair.
Torchwood: Ianto's height. More or less the same as Jack's.
SGA [shamelessly gakked from
nightdog_barks]: Rodney's creamy skin. Say what? Pale, possibly. Creamy? Seriously? Maybe he has secret longings to be Cleopatra and bathes in milk as well, although how he ships it in is anyone's guess… (okay, I'm going to stop there because I feel crack!fic coming and need to lie down until it goes away)Torchwood: Jack's broad shoulders. Now, I'm not one to criticise appreciation of JB's appearance. Not at all. But this goes hand in hand (so to speak) with stick-thin Ianto. The two of them are pretty well matched, but Jack wears a big coat and boots, which makes him look bigger. And yes, the coat's distracting, but still…
Also, when was the last time you noticed, really noticed the colour of someone's eyes? I don't have any problem with this in the right context, but in general, you have to be looking pretty closely. In the House fandom, there's good excuses for mentioning eye colour, given how often the directors highlight it, but most of the time in most fandoms, give your characters a good excuse for noticing the colour. Make something of it. Don't just throw it in because everyone else does.
#2. Once you have watched the characters, please try listening to them. Dialect, use of language, even choice of words all tell you something about the characters. This is helpful when you come to write them.
Torchwood: Jack has an American accent, but we know he's not American. Gwen and Ianto have Welsh accents, Tosh has pretty much an RP accent, while Owen has a London accent. Most of the time, there's not need to indicate this in the text, since we know what they sound like. The dialect might be different, but you don't need to drop 'h's or 't's off everything. Now and again to give flavour, perhaps, but please be careful. We need to be able to read it as well.
I should probably add that my first ever fandom was Gambit (oh, and the rest of the X-men as well), so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to reading accents that are written so strongly they become unintelligible. Torchwood's not that bad, but I do get frustrated with constant mention of Ianto's 'beautiful Welsh vowels'. One reference, people. One! We already know he's Welsh. Please find something else to say about his voice.
Out of interest, SGA people, how do you feel about seeing 'ZPM' written as 'ZedPM' for Rodney? I read the right one automatically for the person speaking, but there's a case for writing it out. I just know that it makes me blink, which can interrupt the flow.
#3. In and out of characterness is a trickier one, but I generally think that if you can back it up from canon, you're fine. I might disagree with you, but that's okay, as long as you're doing it from a sensible starting place.
Please stop making Jack and Ianto cry. Yes, I know we've seen them both crying in extreme situations, but for goodness sake stop it! Speaking as someone who has been known to burst into tears during adverts (and no, not just for the horror that is the Cilip Bang ad), even I don't cry as much as these two seem to in fic. If you're going to make them cry, give them a good reason.
People are really, really rubbish at talking about what they're feeling. Unless they've had really good therapy, but even then, if they're talking to someone who hasn't, they're going to mess it up. There's going to be lots of pauses, lots of significant looks and - if they're genuinely trying to talk about their feelings - lots of hand waving and 'you know?' If both the characters are men, this is probably going to be doubled.
If one of these men is John Sheppard, who looks like he's going to have a panic attack when someone hugs him, triple the number you first thought of. And add a couple of thousand. If one of these men is Ianto Jones, he's going to make sarcastic comments and look awkward. If one of them is Rodney McKay, he's going to keep talking until you shut him up out of pity. If one of them is Jack Harkness, you're going to think he's given you an answer until you walk away and realise he hasn't, not really. If one of these men is Gregory House…actually, even I can't imagine that one, so I'll stop there.
#4. Epithets. The OED defines this as: "An adjective indicating some quality or attribute which the speaker or writer regards as characteristic of the person or thing described." I vividly remember reading the novelisation of 'The Empire Strikes Back' at the age of thirteen, and wanting to throw it across the room because they kept describing Luke as 'the young commander'. Every. Other. Sentence. So this is a long standing personal gripe more than anything else, but hey, my journal, my rant.
Now, I know this is a personal dislike, and that it doesn't bother others so much, but please think when you're using epithets. Who's the point of view character? How are they going to think about the person they're talking to/watching? Are the Torchwood team really going to think of Jack as 'the Captain'? Does Sheppard think of Rodney as 'the astrophysicist'? Would Wilson think of House as 'the diagnostician'? (that one baffles me, I have to say…)
I'm aware that this is the one that people are going to disagree on, and I want to emphasise that in the right context, they work fine. But too often they're used because the writer thinks they need to introduce variety for the sake of variety. Descriptions like 'the other man' (and the phrase 'he said', while we're on this subject) don't really get 'read' by readers. They're registered as denoting the non-POV character (or speech) and kind of skipped over. Again, they can get awkward, but choice of words matters and is worth thinking about.
Actually, maybe that's what I'm trying to say: writers, please engage your brain before you open a Word document. Everyone will thank you in the long run.
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Thin Ianto.
Time for an old rant with much generalisation. ;) I'll say right now that there is some excellent fic out there in all genres - slash, het and gen - but Sturgeon's Law applies and after a while you do become aware of certain themes running through some parts of the fictional output....
I long ago came to the conclusion that fanwriters can generally be divided into those who want to explore the characters and/or worlds presented to them in canon, and those who mostly want to fit the latest pretties into their own particular button-pushing fantasies. It happens with slash, it happens with het, but somehow it's all the more noticeable in the slash. I swear, every slash fandom seems to have one character who invariably ends up being written as, basically, a bad romance novel heroine - small and delicate, emotionally fragile (this would be the crying and the Talking About Feelings), given to dramatic gestures, and physically devoid of any male secondary sexual characteristics (chest hair? stubble?), while the Preferred Partner is often made more masculine (this would be the bit about Jack's broad shoulders!). But because they have an extra dangly bit it's all just fine... because apparently only female OCs can ever be Mary-Sues, right? What the character is actually like on screen/in print, in terms of physical appearance and personality, really has nothing to do with it, because it's the dynamic that matters. The characters involved are just pretty toys to be replaced in that dynamic when the Next Big Thing comes along.
And yes, if that's what folks like, then they'll happily treat the fandom as a fan-created literary genre and ignore the canon. Because what they want isn't in the canon, but the fanon. I don't think it's a conscious thing, but I think that it taps into the same sort of emotional-chocolate vibe that Mills and Boon and others of that ilk do. And that's great if that's what you're into, but if it's not, you really need to get good at spotting it in the headers and fast. ;)
(Poor Ianto - from the moment he turned up, you just knew that he was going to be the latest in that long line of dubiously feminised unfortunates. Heck, even DW!Jack got it somewhat. But it's as old as the hills - I used to print out Professionals slash for my mother (dating back to the 70s/80s) and often as not, there was poor Doyle with his delicate build and his emerald eyes (note: jewel-tone eyes are usually a good indicator of tripe!) and his fragile sensibilities, which makes you wonder if they'd ever actually watched the show....)
Still, it does fill a genuine demand, I guess, both amongst those who genuinely enjoy reading it and those who like to write whatever they think will get them the most feedback. And it's really not that hard to avoid if you know it's out there.
Amen on the 'real people being crap talking about their feelings'! Especially guys. And on the use of language - accent is best put across through word choice and speech patterns in my experience, and should never, under any circumstances be attempted phonetically because what the writer hears and translates to is dependent on their own accent. Seriously - I used to hang around in Star Wars fandom and there were occasions when non-British writers would attempt to write an RP accent phonetically. Was not pretty! :)
Gambit... well, I promise I won't hold it against you. ;)
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Oh yes. What's been getting me is that so many of them seem to be someone else's recycled fantasies - a good writer puts something down, and suddenly, there are 80 badfics running with the same theme.
I think that it taps into the same sort of emotional-chocolate vibe that Mills and Boon and others of that ilk do.
*nods* My problem is, of course, that Mills and Boon are very good at what they do (apparently the editors are very good at spotting people who write them for love and people who write them for money) but that so many of these fics are trying and failing to fill this need. And I love a good fluffy romance as much as the next chocoholic, but it's got to be the good stuff. Green & Black's Maya gold, not a non-fat Flyte bar.
those who like to write whatever they think will get them the most feedback.
I get very depressed when my fluffy, written for fun, hint of Jack/Ianto stuff gets quadruple the comments of my serious stuff. Tis the way of things, and my own fault for writing the fluff, but it still makes me sad, mostly because I can't tell if the comments are because it's good fluff, or because it's Jack/Ianto.
accent is best put across through word choice and speech patterns in my experience
The number of pieces where the dialogue is wrong and flat and blank never ceases to amaze me. even if people don't read, surely they listen? Can't they hear that people use words differently?
non-British writers would attempt to write an RP accent phonetically.
*blinks* that's possible? The mind boggles.
Gambit... well, I promise I won't hold it against you
*grin* Of course, can't think why I'd like a good-looking, mysterious, wise-cracking, charming, ruthless, redeemed conman...
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so many of them seem to be someone else's recycled fantasies
Yes. And for some it's a case of imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, while others merely note the volume of feedback and decide that they're going to get them some of that! And after a while it all becomes circular - this is what we see most of, so therefore it must be right/popular/in-character, so we'll write more of it....
I can't tell if the comments are because it's good fluff, or because it's Jack/Ianto.
Much as I hate to say it, I suspect that a lot of comments get scattered around simply because something is J/I and some folks who like that want to encourage it, regardless of whether it's good, bad or indifferent. I have friends who, shall we say, take an odd pleasure in seeking out the absolute worst fic they can find for its amusement value, and they're often bemused by just how much encouragement even the really bad stuff gets. It's that vicious circle again.
(And some folks really do just write for feedback. I recall one person in the previous fandom (who I've noted popping up on one of the recent TW fic roundup listings!) who was notorious for posting WiPs and demanding x amount of feedback within 24 hours or she'd stop writing that fic. Which led to a lot of people boycotting her, but others played along and she'd end up writing to the demands of the feedback... which meant that absolutely everything ended up as a rather bland, lowest-common denominator soggy romance. When that didn't work as well as she'd like, she went over to sockpuppets (invariably "first time writer, please let me know how I'm doing!!!") but was bad at keeping track of them and would spark plagiarism rows on the mailing lists because the same story would end up in the same archive three times under different names! At one point she had the same piece up on one list twice inside three months under different names, it having apparently not reaped enough feedback the first time out. I think we finally managed to track eight different pen names back to her....)
Can't they hear that people use words differently?
Apparently not.... :) This is where finding yourself a good beta comes in!
*blinks* that's possible?
Well, no, which was rather the point:
Obi-Wan: "Yes, Mahstah."
Brit readers: "Why does Obi-Wan sound like Jar-Jar Binks?"
Writer: *flounce*
I remember someone once writing some epic where they did the same with Scottish and Irish accents. I didn't hang around for that one. Little throws a reader out of a story quite so fast as trying to work out just what the characters are actually saying....
Gambit: around 1991-ish, I borrowed a friend's complete run of X-Men (and off-shoots) and gorged myself on them. Great stuff. But that was also about the time that things started to take a turn for the self-indulgently fanboyish (Jim Lee, I'm looking at you) and my enjoyment rapidly soured. Gambit was a fabulous character (despite the phonetics!) when he was first introduced, partnering amnesiac little!Storm, but then he seemed to abruptly drop a decade or two of age, acquired a god-awful cliched backstory, and turned into the biggest fanboy Marty-Stu going, even next to Logan. Which was bad enough in itself, but what I could never forgive them was the writers taking a strong, well-developed female character - Rogue - whose storyline had been building over many years, and basically emotionally eviscerating her for the sake of their new self-insertion toy having a love interest.
So I can't really compare Gambit to Jack, because while Jack came storming in on DW, they quickly sent him off to his own show to develop his story. He can wander back into DW any time, but he doesn't do it at the expense of other characters already established there. It's a writer/development-complaint as much as it is a character one, but for me Gambit will always be one of the main reasons why I finally had to give up on the comics.
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I think, I write because I have something to say. I like getting feedback - I wouldn't bother posting otherwise - but I'd rather have one comment from someone who's actually thought (or seems to have read the story...) than a couple of hundred "Yay! good!"s. Both are nice, but one is worth its weight in gold. I have real trouble with understanding the kind of mindset you described above - I mean, I know there's the whole 'attention seeking behaviour' explanation, but the thought process behind it utterly baffles me.
Ah...I understand why Gambit would annoy you in that case. I got into comics much, much later (about 2000-2004), by which point things had settled down a little, although I could have done without the constant Gambit/Rogue soap opera that did neither of them any credit.
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ff.net is terrifying at the best of times! But yes, it's surprising how often the feedback will give you a clue as to the quality of the story....
I write because the stories want out. :) They may not do it in order or in a reasonable timeframe, but when the bunnies want attention they can be very insistent! I post because the sense of a creative community is enjoyable but while getting feedback is great for the warm fuzzies, I never expect it and it's not an essential part of the writing/posting process for me - I actually have a line in my story header saying as much. But then, I started out in lit-fandom fanzines where you wrote to be a part of the greater shared-universe storyline and where feedback didn't really exist (if you heard anything at all, it was invariably months down the line dependent on publishing schedule!). The instant recognition of online publishing is nice, but it's a fairly recent perk for me. :)
So, no, I don't get the thought processes of the feedback whores either - it just seems to be a rather peculiar form of attention seeking!
Yeah, timing is all with X-Men. :) I'm just an old fogey who remembers the days when they had a single storyline, sensible characterisation, and didn't feel the need to inflict a complete reboot every couple of years....
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(Anonymous) 2008-02-27 02:56 pm (UTC)(link)....Your mom is awesome?
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Sadly, she's no longer with us, which is all the more sad because she'd have LOVED Torchwood (and JB - she was into musical theatre in a big way) to a quite scary degree....
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And I so don't want to read the latter...
I swear, every slash fandom seems to have one character who invariably ends up being written as, basically, a bad romance novel heroine - small and delicate, emotionally fragile (this would be the crying and the Talking About Feelings), given to dramatic gestures, and physically devoid of any male secondary sexual characteristics (chest hair? stubble?), while the Preferred Partner is often made more masculine (this would be the bit about Jack's broad shoulders!).
You've just hit the nail squarely on the head there, I reckon. You didn't read any of the fanfic stemming from "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" did you? The problem was probably exacerbated further by the fact that we're talking Johnny Depp and Antonio Banderas, but oh my, were there some stunningly horrible examples from that...